Tuesday, February 19, 2008

Pleasin' Squeezin'



From my prior comments about my love for bowel surgery and for the old-fashion method of hooking the ends together, one might draw the erroneous conclusion that I eschew all forms of operative shortcuts. Untrue. While not the top priority, speed is an issue, and I've written about that, too. My reasons for preferring hand-sewing over staples -- aesthetics, cost savings, connection to the history of surgery -- don't apply when it comes to clamping and tying blood vessels. Surgical clips, particularly the old-style individually loaded ones (as opposed to the fancy disposable multi-fire guns) are cheap as dirt, simple as hell, and save lots of time.

For the first thousand years or so, surgical clips were made of stainless steel. More recently, and mainly because of concerns about clips being pulled off by MRI machines, they come in titanium or, most lately, are made of absorbable material. Whatever the composition, the idea is straightforward: shaped like the marriage-bed issue of a V and a U and grasped in the jaws of whatever instrument, the open part is slid across a vessel or duct, the holder-handles are squeezed, and the clip flattens into two legs tightly pressing the tubular structure in question and rendering it closed. Depending on size, pressure, and tightness of one's own sphincter, more than one clip might be closed onto the business end before cutting. Either way, it saves several seconds over clamping and tying; over a long operation with need for many ligatures, it adds up.

Blessedly uncommon, one teensy problem can occur: if the jaws of the applier are out of alignment, instead of bringing the "legs" of the clip properly together, they may overlap in such a way as to turn it into a scissor, cutting when the intent had been the opposite. Depending on where and what, it can fall anywhere along that line which connects "nuisance" with "disaster."

Practically every patient who's had his/her gallbladder out in recent years will have had two little clips placed, one on the artery to the gallbladder, and one on the duct that drains from it into the main bile duct. By the pattern and location, you can tell a person has had the operation just looking at a plain belly Xray. Consequently, I've had many patients return to me upset because their chiropracter took one of their infamous whole-body Xrays and told them that those clips near their spine are causing all sorts of problems, likely requiring monthly manipulations for the rest of their life. I'm guessing the regular reader will not have to wonder what I think of that. It did, however, lead me to be sure to inform everyone in advance, pointing out that we leave chunks of steel the size of doorknobs in hip sockets, and pacemakers aplenty, big as a pocket watch and housed happily.

Mother of all general surgical operations, the Whipple procedure (about which I've written here and in my book) affords many opportunities for applying clips, and I've always done so liberally. One such patient brought me an amazing story, which I'd never heard before and haven't since.

Other than being the color of a daffodil, when I met him he was a very healthy and vigorous man, in his sixties and in need of a Whipple, which I did promptly, slick and quick. His recovery was rapid (much more so than indicated in the preceding link) and he returned in short order to his major pleasure, golf. One day, several weeks after the operation, golfing as usual and on a dog-leg left, long par four, he explained, he felt a strange tickling sensation on his belly. Lifting his shirt and looking down, he noticed some activity at the small and previously healed scar from where I'd placed, and left for a few days, a drainage tube. He got his hand to the area in time to catch a whole series -- fourteen, to be exact -- of steel clips exiting out the former hole in single file like little tin soldiers, blip, blip, plop, plop. He brought them to me in a baggie.

52 comments:

Patrick said...

Dear, God, Sid. The "scissor" comment made me squirm. And in way I *never* did as an EMT . . .

rlbates said...

I find it marvelous how the body will either encapsulate a foreign material or "spit" it out! Great story, Dr Sid!

Bongi said...

seriously wierd. in my mind i can't help seeing the bad guy in the movie the mask who gets shot a whole bunch of times. he gathers the bullets up, finally in his mouth and spits them out , shooting all his would be assassins. was anyone on the golf course injured be high speed clips?

make mine trauma said...

Awesome, how did you do that?!

AlisonH said...

Oh my goodness! And now you've got a song suddenly stuck in my head--the one with the chorus that goes, "One tin soldier rides away..."

Onehealthpro said...

And I thought it was odd when a stich surfaced months after my dad's bypass surgery. Don't know whether it's true, but I've heard stiches can still surface years later.
Onehealthpro

Sid Schwab said...

Pro: it IS true. Years later. When I was in training, in our clinic we had crochet hooks we used to fish out old sutures that had become infected or rejected. Because absorbable sutures are much stronger and longer lasting than they used to be, those sorts that would stay around forever and occasionally spit out aren't used very much, so the problem is disappearing.

gay CME guy said...

Another great post, Sid.
Alisonh: The song's title is, "One Tin Soldier", recorded by Coven. It was from the movie, "Billy Jack" from the early 70's. It's the first song that taught me the transforming power of music.

I'm actually surprised some artist/group hasn't re-recorded it, as it's a great peace promoting song regarding war.

Anonymous said...

Have you ever had a patient come back and state the clips are causing irritations and bleeding?

Had anyone requested the clips to be removed?

Sid Schwab said...

The clips to which I referred are placed internally, far from any surface where they could cause such symptoms. The case I describe at the end of the post is very unusual, and relates to an extremely large operation and the use of a long-standing drainage tube.

kitkat said...

I just recently found out that I had 6 surgical clips left in me due to my gallbladder surgery 5 years ago. I've been experiencing high levels of pain in the same area on my front right side where the gallbladder used to be. I also have right flank pain in my back as well. I've been experiencing nausea and fatigue also. Why would the surgeon leave that many clips in?? Can these be removed easily? I just need answers.

Sid Schwab said...

kitkat: as I said in the article, we leave clips in all the time, and they are totally inert and do no harm. We use them because they are quick and safe.

Removing them would be a much bigger deal than the operation that put them in; and there's no reason to do it. Without knowing your specific situation I can't say what might be the explanation for your symptoms. There are many possibilities, and you should see your docs to figure it out. I can say, however, that it's as certain as can be that it has NOTHING to do with the clips that are there.

Anonymous said...

You said to someone claiming the pain can not be related to steel surgical clips and I must disagree - My sister had her gall bladder removed about 17 years ago and has had severe pain in her rib area - A radiologist did an MRI showing mirgration of the clips to the right upper quadrant as well as abdomen. Is this just conisidence that where the clips migrated to are also in the same exact area of her pain.? She is suffering so badly due to this pain with NO ryme or reason. Her PCP believes it is the clips causing that pain. ??

Sid Schwab said...

It would be interesting to know what the PCP's theory is; ie, in what way the clips are causing pain.

Anonymous said...

Sid,
actually, she thinks the clips might be "tearing" through her insides as the pain she is describing is a tearing sensation. My sister does have leasions that are now showing through ultrasound but cant get any rhyme or reason for them and God for bid she gets a Doctor to do exploratory surgery to look and just "try" to help her.. We are very frustrated at this point as she is just suffering too much. There are SOOOOO many others out there who had their gall bladders removed and suffering and some stories do turn out that migrated clips WERE the cause of their pain. I have been researching for years..MedHelp.com has quite a few stories that end that way....thank you for allowing me to vent that out.. :O)

Anonymous said...

http://www.kpvi.com/global/story.asp?s=7411611

Not sure if you can open this link, but here is a story of a man who claims its the clip left inside causing soo much pain.. How can so many people with these clips left behind be wrong about "their" pain...There has to be something we can do..NOONE should ever suffer with pain...

Sid Schwab said...

Well, there's a whole industry of people who think autism is caused by vaccines, despite reams of evidence that it's not. There are people who believe that water has "memory," that you can heal people by waving your hands over them, that echinacea cures colds. Belief, in this context, isn't proof.

All I can say is what I've already said: we use metals of all sorts in many different kinds of surgery. It is inert. I guess I can't say there's no way a given clip could cause pain, because there's no way to test it. But there's no plausible explanation, to me anyway, how it could be so.

Anonymous said...

Husband had liver resection surgery in November, 2009. December, 2009 got an abscess. They cut the abscess to let it drain. January, 2010 surgical clip spit out of wound. February, 2010 another clip came out. Just waiting for more as he has many clips!

Sid Schwab said...

Something to look forward to, I guess.

Summer said...

My Dad has had a history of peripheral vascular disease and was admitted to a hospital in Dec of '08, underwent right ileofemoral endarterectomy and left femoral to anterior tibial bypass graft. In Jan '09 he underwent limited flexible sigmoidoscopy and suggestive of ischemic colon. He also had surgical clips in both inguinal regions (right upper quadrant and both groins).He had six (6) operations during this time. He also had consistent illeus througout hospital and long term care nursing facility.

Are the clips suggestive of malpractice, causing him to die in January, 2010, causing illeus and obstruction in his colon?


Would anesthesia (due to excessive surguries) be indicative of paralytic ileus?

Sid Schwab said...

Summer: I'm sorry to hear about your dad. But as you can see from my post, we use clips all the time and it's most certainly NOT malpractice to do so.

Paralytic ileus is not rare after abdominal surgery. Even more so in someone with significant vascular disease. There are many factors, including the handling of bowel, anesthesia, narcotics, circulation, etc.

KC the professional pt. said...

I've got 2 clips surfing my guts & I am not discounting peoples' claims of pain, but being that I am a "professional patient" (thanks to a raging auto-immune disease) & having a full understanding of psychology, I have to contemplate that some folks who proclaim the surgical clips to be causing them pain are suffering from a psychosomatic sort of response. I remember when I had a crazy flare up of gut pain approximately 2 years after my lap. cholecystectomy, some x-ray or CT scan showed those cruising clips & one cut happy surg. res. was all too damned eager to slice me from stem to stern to get at them. I basically told him to cram walnuts & demanded I get to speak to the head honcho, who actually took the time to listen & speak with my other docs & just as I suspected it was, he proclaimed my hurting & inflamed guts to be of the auto-immune freak incident I am known for producing from time to time. Folks, esp. the sue happy sort, please listen to the doc here when he says that the clips are BENIGN! While there may be a slim chance (think snowball in hades) that your body is reacting to the clips, it most likely has absolutely NOTHING to do with what ails you or your loved ones. My clips are happy to swim in my belly, checking out the sights, & bumping into assorted things, but they can not hurt me. If you know anything about psychosomatic responses, it's not that you don't have pain, it's your brain that has conjured it up because of the correlation you'd made. I hope people will find comfort in knowing that there are millions of us with "transient clips" that are fine & dandy.

Sid Schwab said...

Thanks, KC, for your useful and amusing comment. I'd only quibble slightly: clips pretty rapidly get incorporated into tissue and (except for the highly unusual situation I described, when they get spit out entirely) don't travel at all.

And I'd hope that surgical resident has found a nice safe job somewhere, outside of the surgical arena.

Anonymous said...

Hello, I also have clips placed on my lymph nodes (2 of the axillary nodes that were full of silicone after my implants ruptured)and I can sort of feel them in there-they are small things-about 6 of them lined up that I viewed from an x-ray my chiropractor took. I do have weakness in the arm and occasional swelling in the arm pit and around the incision site, but it seems to uncommon to place clips there instead of standard suturing but my doc told me it was the "standard of care" now. So, do you recommend me having them out or leaving them in place? Please help, as I am confused and want them out.

Sid Schwab said...

It's common procedure to use clips instead of suturing; I did it all the time in axillary dissections. Clips are extremely inert, meaning they virtually never cause reaction or other problems. I can't say whether what you are feeling are clips (maybe your surgeon could); although generally where they're used in the axilla is pretty deep relative to the skin, so I'd say it's pretty unlikely that that's what you're feeling.

In a very long career doing many thousands of operations, I've never had to remove clips, and I'd consider it rare indeed that there was ever a need.

As you saw, I mentioned chiropracters and clips; I have them raise alarms to patients on several occasions. They're wrong about that.

Anonymous said...

Maybe there are people who are suffering greatly due to the surgical clips:
http://www.topix.com/forum/health/T7022J42SEOQGCM1G

Why not go Clipless ?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19851262

Anonymous said...

Hi!
I had right hemi colon resection surgery last year. I have Lupus and have been in a flare since then. I had asked the surgeon not to use clips, he said he won't. However they are clearly seen on xrays and CT scan. I have to be so careful how I move my upper body, piercing, sharp pain, feels like something is being poked.
Also the immune reaction is constant. The surgeon is saying he didn't put them in there. Well, who did?
Lil

Sid Schwab said...

I don't know.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Doc for allowing me to post and share some articles about the metal surgical clips here. I think if a patient is given a choice, he/she will probably not choose the metal clip type of Lap Chole Surgery.

1) Hypersensitivity to titanium-clinical and laboratory evidence:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17261997

2) Chronic Urticaria Due to Surgical Clips:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199311183292121

3) Migration and slipping of metal clips after celioscopic cholecystectomy:
http://www.traveldoctoronline.net/migration-and-slipping-of-metal-clips-after-celioscopic-cholecystectomy-ODI2OTI3MQ==.htm

4) Efficacy of absorbable clips compared with metal clips for cystic duct ligation in laparoscopic cholecystectomy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12560902


I had gallbladder problem and had to have it removed. I finally found a surgeon in the U.S. who uses suture instead of metal clips. So I had the poor gallbladder removed last week. The surgeon used the silk suture (non-absorbable). I wish I had read this below article before the surgery, then I can remind him to use the absorbable suture. Later, I was told it is very rare that the silk suture can cause any issue, but I really wish that he had used the non-absorbable suture on me. That way, I don't have to worry at all.

1) Migration of suture material into common bile duct leading to stone formation: A case report:
http://www.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-surgery/volume-19-number-2/migration-of-suture-material-into-common-bile-duct-leading-to-stone-formation-a-case-report.html

2) An Unusual Common Bile Duct Foreign Body:
http://www.hmc.org.qa/qmj/nov2005/november2005/case/case2.htm

Wendyann Ocasio said...

I had a TAH with Bi-lateral oophrectomy because of Endometrial metatastic type cancer that was stage 1A1 on 4/5/11.

My wound was stapled and dihised (sp?) which led to wound vac treatment.

I was ultimately left with an incissional hernia which was repaired on 3/26/12.

I have had severe pain since and have had 3 CT scans since which reveal I have 4-7 metal clips inside me which I had no knowledge of and which are not mentioned in either surgical report.

My question is, why were they used, and why were they not mentioned to me?

Sid Schwab said...

I assume they were used for the reasons that all surgeons use them: they are a safe and efficient way to control blood vessels before cutting them. As I wrote in the post, they're absolutely routine and there'd have been no more reason to mention them than there'd have been to mention sutures of polyglycolic acid were used.

It sounds like you had a wound infection, which would be unrelated either to the skin staples or the internal ones. Wound dehiscence after infection is pretty common, as is the development of the incisional hernia.

I've never seen a case where clips were a source of pain, and I used them in thousands of operations. But, as you could tell from comments here, some people disagree.

Anonymous said...

Is there any nickel in surgical clips and anastomosis staples? When does the immune response end for somebody with a nickel allergy and or autoimmune disease?
Thank you so much!

Sid Schwab said...

I just googled composition of clips. Here's a list for one maker.

I don't know the answer to your allergy question. An allergist or immunologist might.

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Schwab!
Were surgical clips used in 1973 (hysterectomy)?
When I had surgery last year (colon resection) my surgeon did not write the post surgery report until 7 weeks after the surgery, he was upset with me for asking for it and finally came up with it. Is that unusual?
Thank you so much Dr. Schwab for answering my questions.

Anonymous said...

Dear Doctor!
Is it true that pictures are taken of the patient after the surgery is complete to show incision etc. If yes, does the surgeon or hospital keep them
thank you

Sid Schwab said...

I'm pretty sure clips were used in 1973, but not as frequently as now.

It's bad form to wait 7 weeks to dictate an operative report.

I suppose some surgeons might routinely take pictures of completed incisions (plastic surgeons, maybe), but I've never seen it done.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Dr. Schwab for answering my questions. You are very kind!!!

Anonymous said...

Dr. Schwab: I love your posts and I seemed to have lost you for a while. So glad to find that you are still actively posting. As re the clip frenzy, I enjoyed your story (and, as a critical care nurse, I am still trying to figure it out) and I am sorry that the comments have taken on the flavor of clip-o-chondriacs gone wild.

Anonymous said...

Sigh. Clip-o-chondriacs gone wild.

Wendy said...

Hi. I also am having pain from clips. When ever so slight pressure is placed on hard area aka "clips" or bending or moving certain ways or God forbid sleeping on my right side HURTS!!! I'm also haing upper right side back pain. I was unaware at first what these "hard" spots were and why they were hurting me. About the 3rd week after surgery...I ened up in the emergency room with the worst pain I've ever endured! I've been through labor and other surgeries so it wasn't a case that I'm intolerant of pain. I was not informed that thse clips were going to be used. Too bad for I would have done the research and discovered all these other people in this nightmare! I certainly would have demanded good old stiches....what ever happen to those?? All thses folks, including myself can't be mistaken about the same symptoms regarding pain. Has any doctor under gone this proceedure with clips? I hope soon that the medial world stops using this proceedure and stop inflicting pain. At this time, I want them removed so that I may get back to my life! Wendylk7 @ hotmail

Sid Schwab said...

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, Wendy, but from what you describe it seems literally impossible that clips have anything to do with it. Clips are virtually never used near the surface, so whatever hard spots you're noting, they're not clips. Unless your surgeon did something very uncommon.

And, yes, surgeons who've had surgery have clips in them as much as anyone else. I'd be happy to have them used on me.

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc." A logical fallacy. It's not to say that no one has ever had problems related to clips. People die from penicillin, from driving in cars. But clips are used every day everywhere; the number of people who've had problems with them rounds off to zero.

mehc said...

Looking through the 'clipochondriac' links, I'm floored by the number of people stating: "I had invasive surgery and there was postoperative pain, so it must clearly be the fault of clips!"

While they do look rather striking on an x-ray, I'd say that an even more striking source of pain would be the large incision, removed tissue, and/or internal rearrangement necessary in surgery. "I have pain in this area and there are clips there" isn't even an argument for clips causing pain...it's an argument that surgically related things (such as pain and clips) will both be present in the area of surgery. Or perhaps that the surgery didn't fully fix the problem.

Anyway, another great post, Dr. Schwab...I've read through all of them, from the beginning, over the past few days, and was waiting for comments posted this year so that I could let you know how much I've enjoyed the material!

Sid Schwab said...

Nice! Thanks.

RobynK said...

I too had my galbladder removed this past March, and also have surgical clips left behind. I am experiencing the same symtoms at the people above, pain in the general area of the surgery that feels like pinching and tearing when I try to do things, nausea and the fatigue. It has caused me to loose my job and has greatly decreased my life style..I thought I'd come on the internet to see if others have the same issue..and volla, many of you.."not in my head" needing phyciatric care kind of pain. Just had my CT scan results back,and of course there are clips in the gallbladder fossa, hmmmmmmm I didn't know there would be metal staples left inside me..this explains alot, now how can this be changed that I might get my life back!!! Please

Sid Schwab said...

Sorry to hear of your troubles, Robyn, but my opinion is the same: it's highly unlikely that the clips have anything to do with them. So unlikely that it's nearly impossible. Whatever is going on needs a good evaluation and, hopefully, an explanation.

But, in my opinion (which is based on lots of experience and that of many colleagues, but can't be based specifically on your issues, of course) clips aren't it. I hope you can find out for sure.

Anonymous said...

I had my appendix removed in November 2008. The postoperative pain was so terrible that I screamed at the top of my lungs all the way from the PACU to the room on the med-surg floor, and for much of the next 24 hours.

I suffered from severe pain for most of the next year. The pain was intermittent and only occurred some time after I had eaten food. I could avoid being in pain as long as I did not eat anything. It was hard to sleep at all at night. I became a heavy drinker to cope with the agony of eating dinner. I also had severe problems with vomiting, including fecal vomiting, for which I took zofran.

Finally, almost a year to the date of the initial surgery, two surgical clips were noted on CT scan, to which I replied that I have a nickel allergy. The clips were removed and I have had no vomiting since, although I continue to have mild abdominal pain and can no longer tolerate fried foods.

Please take the issue of allergies to surgical clips seriously. That was the worst year of my life, and I almost didn't graduate from school on time due to the pain, vomiting, and other symptoms.

Anonymous said...

Some articles worth reading :

1) Hypersensitivity to titanium-clinical and laboratory evidence:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17261997

2) Chronic Urticaria Due to Surgical Clips:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199311183292121

3) Migration and slipping of metal clips after celioscopic cholecystectomy:
http://www.traveldoctoronline.net/migration-and-slipping-of-metal-clips-after-celioscopic-cholecystectomy-ODI2OTI3MQ==.htm

meadowcopse said...

Interesting reading from many angles regarding surgical clips.
I found this blog via a search for clip migration. The only surgery I have ever had (15 years ago), was a radial osteotomy and graft from iliac crest - my previously broken left arm was built up with a plate and bone graft from my left hip.
A recent CT scan for Crohn's Disease problems and abdominal / pelvic pain has shown a couple of surgical clips near my appendix on the right hand side of my body! (I've never had my appendix removed or abdominal surgery).

Anonymous said...

I just rececently had robotic gallbladder removal. I was apprehensive about the robotic part, but after about a week, so far so good. I watched many videos of the surgery beforehand to be comfortable with it. What I did notice was theuse of these clips in each surgery...some surgeons using approx 3 on the duct and 2 on the artery. When I asked the surgeon about these clips and what he uses, he said because the procedure is robotic, he uses a non metal locking clip and he uses one on the artery and 2 on the duct. He also stated he likes these particular clips because they lock in place. I am wondering. if you know what these clips consist of and if they are so called better because they lock? Thank you.

Sid Schwab said...

Locking is not really of value, far as I know: I've never seen nor heard of an issue related to not locking. It's like a paper stapler: once bent they stay. There are some clips made of dissolving material, probably some kind of poly-saccharide related stuff.

By the bye, in my opinion using the robot for gallbladders is the classic example of marketing over common sense. But it does succeed in getting the patients, who think they're getting something special. Sort of like when laparoscopy first came out and was used for gallbladders (which is just fine): we were told, by the companies that sold them, that if you didn't use a laser, patients would go elsewhere.

Nowadays no one uses laser for that operation, because it offers no advantage over standard electrocautery, and just adds expense. But lots of hospitals bought them. In our town, it sat in the hallway gathering dust...

Which is not to say robots have no value (still a matter of debate.) But for gallbladder? Pure marketing.

Anonymous said...

Just wondering what your thoughts are on surgical clips in relation to metal allergies and auto immune diseases

Sid Schwab said...

If a person has a known allergy to materials used in clips (there are several different material options), he/she shouldn't have that type implanted. Confirmation of such allergy is problematical, though.

As to auto-immune diseases caused or exacerbated by surgical clips: I know of no definitive studies showing a relationship. I can't say it's impossible; but the numbers of documented adverse reactions to clips of any composition are exceedingly rare; it's not really possible to draw conclusions that it exists as an entity.