tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post9089859164116066823..comments2024-02-18T13:53:30.168-08:00Comments on Surgeonsblog: Tortured LogicSid Schwabhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-41942451815390263052009-01-25T07:15:00.000-08:002009-01-25T07:15:00.000-08:00Enhanced interrogation techniques probably means u...Enhanced interrogation techniques probably means using Versed/Midazolam. If they can't remember being tortured, then it isn't torture, or is it? Sid, this drug is used on unsuspecting American citizens so that they can be tortured by medical professionals and Police every single day with this drug. I can't feel any real sympathy for TERRORISTS while our own population is abused with impunity. If that makes me a bad insensitive person, so be it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-4026783612725135232008-06-08T09:11:00.000-07:002008-06-08T09:11:00.000-07:00anonymous: brilliant rhetoric, cogent argument. Co...anonymous: brilliant rhetoric, cogent argument. Convincing grasp of and response to the issues at hand. You've shown me the error of my ways.Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-22861607150790011002008-06-07T23:33:00.000-07:002008-06-07T23:33:00.000-07:00get off your high horseget off your high horseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-79225636424845885452008-02-17T18:00:00.000-08:002008-02-17T18:00:00.000-08:00Kimberly: I spent a year in Vietnam. Got wounded, ...Kimberly: I spent a year in Vietnam. Got wounded, but not killed. <BR/><BR/>The question is whether torture works anywhere but when Jack Bauer does it. Both CIA and FBI experts say no, that the info thus obtained is unreliable. <BR/><BR/>Pol Pot waterboarded. It's a fact, not a misunderstanding. I didn't equate anything else. <BR/><BR/>And as I've said elsewhere, saying George Bush has kept us safe is like the guy falling off the Empire State building passing the thirtieth floor and saying, "So far, so good." The Iraq war has not made us safer in any way. The Afganistan war did, for a while, but he went to Iraq before sealing the deal, and things are heading toward getting as bad there as they ever were. The things Bush did that are useful, he has also screwed up: remember the airport screeners at first? He opposed the department of homeland security. He has spent so many resources in Iraq that we don't have the money properly to protect ports, nuclear plants, etc. Even the white house itself said recently that al Queda has increased its ability to attack here. I don't for a minute discount the danger. I just think that nearly everything Bush has done has made it worse: and the fact that there have not been attacks in no way proves otherwise. And, of course, the number of terrorist attacks world-wide has gone up enormously every year he's been in office. Winning the "war on terror?" Only in his mind. Such as it is. I think McCain is probably as honorable a guy as there is on that side of the aisle, even though he just voted against outlawing waterboarding after saying over and over that it's torture and shouldn't be used. Kissing up, anyone?Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-43641963450240775222008-02-17T17:43:00.000-08:002008-02-17T17:43:00.000-08:00What George Bush has managed to do is prevent anot...What George Bush has managed to do is prevent another major terrorist attack on American soil.<BR/><BR/>To equate anything,<BR/> America has done with the savagery of what Pol Pot did in Cambodia is to show a complete miunderstanding of history. The idea is utter nonsense.<BR/><BR/>Since world peace isn't even on the table, I will move on. Would I be willing to torture a terrorist if it meant saving American lives. You bet I would.<BR/><BR/>Being the sister of two marines and the neice of another, I have little patience with armchair generals, so please pardon me if I seem rude.<BR/><BR/>The first duty of an American President is to protect American citizens. Harry Truman was critized for doing just that in 1945. History has vindicated him.<BR/><BR/>I am not suggesting wholesale torture of terrorists. Far from it.<BR/>But in select cases if waterboarding, or some other technique saves innocent lives,then so be it.<BR/><BR/>I do agree that Bush should step forward once and for all, declaring that in some circumstances, controversial techniques will not be ruled out.<BR/><BR/>There is far to much concern with what the world thinks of us. Many countries should be more concerned with what we think of them. They call us the great satan, and imperalists among other things, but when diaster strikes, they are whining like a spoiled child for the good old U.S.A. to bail them out. If America is so terrible in the eyes of the world, why do we have an immigration problem? Why are the people filling our schools and hospitals, costing the American taxpayer billions of dollars, not making a rush for the Mexican Border? Strange, I have never heard of anyone trying to sneak out of America.<BR/><BR/>Some countries, such as France (until recently), have repeatedly<BR/>shown their ingratitude to the U.S.<BR/>Never mind the thousands of American lives it cost to free their behinds from the Germans.<BR/><BR/>There are exceptions. Eastern European nations, such as Poland, are very much aware of what it costs to skake the yoke of tyranny.<BR/><BR/>This is an odd place for this coversation, and I will not post here again because I know that neither of us will change our position. I have had this conversation many times with my aunt's ex-hippie husband.<BR/><BR/>In the end I will probably vote for John McCain,although I am not thrilled with him.In a perfect world, HIllary Clinton would be a Margaret Thatcher. There is a woman after my own heart. She did not play the gender card. You never saw her husband. Best of all, she knew how to deal with terrorists. Just ask Bobby Sands.<BR/><BR/>Your blog is excellent, for the most part, and You are probably a nice guy. Nice guys don't always finish last, but when it comes to war and terrorism, nice guys to often get killed.<BR/><BR/>Good luck to you.kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16371836241871707384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-64702026626700209572008-02-17T08:52:00.000-08:002008-02-17T08:52:00.000-08:00kimberly: what George Bush has done, for the most ...kimberly: what George Bush has done, for the most part, has been to see to it that there are more terrorists in the world, more willing, more anxious, and more able to attack us. No one doubts there are terrorists who represent a very real and very significant threat. George Bush seems the least able to understand what they actually are and how best to deal with the essential nature of the threat. As to your final question: it's like asking if you'd torture if it'd make world peace.<BR/><BR/>And you may have missed the point of my post: Bush said we don't torture. Waterboarding is torture, and the US has defined it as such. So, rather than lie once again to the world and make us look even worse than he already has, why not stand up and make his case for why we must torture? If we are going to be like the terrorists, like the Khmer Rouge, like the North Vietnamese and the Spanish Inquisitors, then tell us why it must be so. Don't just undefine the word, like unwriting the Constitution.Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-8912909430784417532008-02-16T22:59:00.000-08:002008-02-16T22:59:00.000-08:00Some of you are talking like Neville Chamberlain, ...Some of you are talking like Neville Chamberlain, the wimpy Prime Minister of England,who tried to placate Hitler,<BR/> even as he began to ride roughshod over Europe. Thank God for Churchill.<BR/>Otherwise the history of the 20th century might be very different.<BR/><BR/>The terrorists would blow any of you to bits, just as quickly as they did your fellow citizens.Don't tell me if your families were on a plane, about to be blown out of the sky, and waterboarding a terrorist would prevent that diaster from happening, you would sit there and whine about his/her mistreatment. I doubt it.You will probably never be asked to make that decision, but think about it. If waterboarding a few terrorists would have saved all the marines that were killed in Lebanon, or those lost at the twin towers, would you still object so strongly?<BR/>I certainly would not.<BR/><BR/>I cheered when Israel or whoever dispatched that last miserable terrorist, from the 1985 hijacking. Less we forget, a young American sailor was tortured,murdered, and thrown from that plane. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunate as it may be, we are not waging an Emily Post War.George Bush,whatever his shortcomings, understands that. So did F.D.R., and Harry Truman. I will never cast a vote for any candidate, who wants to follow the wimp trail of Jimmy Carter.<BR/><BR/>I would wager that Ariel Sharon regretted many times not dispatching Yasser Arafat, when he had chance. How many innocent lives would that have saved?<BR/><BR/>One last question. Would you have objected to the torture of Nazis, if that torture had prevented the slaughter of several thousand jews?kimberlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16371836241871707384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-49972614912221849312008-02-13T17:48:00.000-08:002008-02-13T17:48:00.000-08:00I agree with you 100% Sid. If becoming the Devil i...I agree with you 100% Sid. If becoming the Devil is what it takes to beat the Devil, then I want no part of it. Go ahead and behead me and have done.<BR/><BR/>Torture is wrong and immoral. If you use it, then you have become wrong and immoral. How then can you say you are different than your enemy?<BR/><BR/>By using torture, you have become the same as your enemy. So why then are you still fighting him if you have become the same as him. You are brothers.Assrothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14093506505019819353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-86717864506605518332008-02-13T10:29:00.000-08:002008-02-13T10:29:00.000-08:00There's also the issue of where do you draw the li...There's also the issue of where do you draw the line between coercive interrogation techniques and torture? Clearly the "comfy chair" approach isn't going to extract much needed information. Is harsh questioning torture? Is a cold room? How cold? How about making someone stand up for a long time in one place? Or listen to music they don't like? Or deprive them of sleep?<BR/><BR/>Heck, so far it sounds like my third year surgery rotation.scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12163296819469420123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-42552574043455188232008-02-13T09:03:00.000-08:002008-02-13T09:03:00.000-08:00There's also this issue.There's also <A HREF="http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/02/how_do_you_un-torture_someone.html" REL="nofollow">this issue</A>.Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-29526207268592303512008-02-12T18:41:00.000-08:002008-02-12T18:41:00.000-08:00I totally agree. I once read (sorry I don't remem...I totally agree. I once read (sorry I don't remember where) someone who wrote that if we can't do something to our own prisoners/crime suspects, we probably ought not to be doing it to prisoners of war/terrorism suspects.Midwife with a Knifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04309579302399381913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-15365058287408017612008-02-12T17:47:00.000-08:002008-02-12T17:47:00.000-08:00beauzeaux: your point is an excellent one, althoug...beauzeaux: your point is an excellent one, although I'm sure there are some who'll say it's just another unfortunate but necessary side effect, like the tens of thousands who return from war permanently ruined. The intransigence of such a mindset is a big reason why it may never change.Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-86436511575273276922008-02-12T17:37:00.000-08:002008-02-12T17:37:00.000-08:00I couldn't agree with you more! I can't imagine w...I couldn't agree with you more! I can't imagine we gain ANY useful information from torturing prisoners. I'm sure they eventually will say anything to make it stop, just as the victims of the Spanish Inquisition did.<BR/><BR/>Your most important point, though, was your last one. This is a war of ideas, and if we have to sacrifice our ideals to "win the war", we haven't won at all. They have. Because we will be no better than them.Doctor Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05561641468831789428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-3156774484292177872008-02-12T16:20:00.000-08:002008-02-12T16:20:00.000-08:00It doesn't matter whether torture works. It debase...It doesn't matter whether torture works. It debases both the torturer and the tortured.<BR/>It debases our humanity.<BR/>In that way, it's like capital punishment, it's horrible for its victims but even more horrifying is the degradation of the torturers and executioners.<BR/>THEY become less than human and those who are tacit approvers acquire the same corruption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-67319781525870265622008-02-12T15:06:00.000-08:002008-02-12T15:06:00.000-08:00scalpel: I'd love to know how much of KSM's info c...scalpel: I'd love to know how much of KSM's info came from torture, and how much from the non-torture techniques that were described as used on Saddam. In the best of all worlds (well, until there's world peace and everyone is holding hands) we'd be seen as better than all of that, even the "lesser" torture methods. If we are trying to export our ideals, yada yada... I think it's important in the long run.<BR/><BR/>And I wouldn't call the war unjust (which is not to say it isn't). I'd call it stupid, because it's given OBL <B><I>exactly</I></B> what he wanted. Every day we stay, he gets more of what he wants. Which is why it's so stupid: if we leave too precipitously, he gets more. It was the worst thing any president has done, ever, and if it doesn't literally destroy us, it'll have brought us down for a long, long time. It was unjust to US, I guess.Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-52353606315768111632008-02-12T13:23:00.000-08:002008-02-12T13:23:00.000-08:00KSM was one of the three who were reportedly water...KSM was one of the three who were reportedly waterboarded, and we supposedly got quite a bit of useful information from him (and he probably squealed like a pig, too).<BR/><BR/>If you are going to split hairs, I guess I can too. Our forms of "torture" don't physically harm the prisoners. Saddam's henchmen used to hang people from hooks on the ceiling by their wrists tied behind their backs, for example, long after their shoulders dislocated. And cut off fingers and tongues, among other things. And push people off of buildings.<BR/><BR/>But the war was unjust, nevertheless, I suppose. And we are no better than them, as long as you split the proper hairs.scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12163296819469420123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-81689602261944811642008-02-12T13:13:00.000-08:002008-02-12T13:13:00.000-08:00scalpel: I suppose I could split hairs and say the...scalpel: I suppose I could split hairs and say the civilian casualties are, at least in some sense, accidental. The decision to torture is deliberate, and is the prime intention. In the ticking time-bomb scenario, I admit to thinking if it actually works, it might be kept on the table. But there are pretty credible sources that say it doesn't, unless the aim is to produce a false confession. Bush tells us it has averted attacks. He also raised terror alert status every time there was bad news about him out there; and the few arrests that have been touted (remember Ashcroft trotting out to announce the latest triumph?) have all ended up to be overblown, and under prosecuted.Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-77205346526300507252008-02-12T13:06:00.000-08:002008-02-12T13:06:00.000-08:00Sometimes we have to do things we'd rather not do....Sometimes we have to do things we'd rather not do. For example, we would prefer not to kill any innocent civilians during wartime, but sometimes we do anyway, because we feel that the end justifies the means. Hiroshima and Nagasaki come to mind.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, George W. Bush won't return to the White House again, unless Laura decides that her experience as first lady qualifies her to be president. And none of the candidates remaining this year are likely to support torture.<BR/><BR/>Unless something really bad happens that makes them reconsider. Again.scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12163296819469420123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-85256356657216272302008-02-11T21:53:00.000-08:002008-02-11T21:53:00.000-08:00Presidential candidate, Senator McCain is a prime ...Presidential candidate, Senator McCain is a prime example of what you are talking about. He was in the Hanoi Hilton enduring torture for 5 years or so. Confessed to war crimes against the North Vietnamese that he didn't commit because of the torture.<BR/><BR/>I know there are people out there calling him a traitor but maybe they should have walked in his shoes first. He also refused release but opted to stay with the other soldiers instead in spite of the torture.<BR/><BR/>Didn't he stand up against torture being used when all the news about Abu Ghraib made it in the headlines? McCain Amendment?<BR/><BR/>I wish no one ever tortured and there were no innocent people being killed anywhere. <BR/><BR/>No I haven't been inspired by any one candidate as yet but thought of him because of your post and the comments.SeaSprayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906503090688697222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-79936915832912876242008-02-11T19:49:00.000-08:002008-02-11T19:49:00.000-08:00Dr. Schwab, That successful Reagan invasion you re...Dr. Schwab, <BR/>That successful Reagan invasion you reference has gotta be Grenada...I was buttoning up my combat fatigues and mentally reviewing my own combat plan as a Hospital Corpsman back then, but before I could finish tying the laces on my boots, the damn war was over. Heck, the flight from San Diego to Grenada lasted longer than the entire "war". It seems so naive now, but back then, when I was young and stupid, the cold war was frankly, boring, so Grenada had me all pumped up for about 48 hours.<BR/><BR/>Your Tortured Logic post is spot on....Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07255762585505666822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-38605702459770423982008-02-11T12:30:00.000-08:002008-02-11T12:30:00.000-08:00I've read many descriptions, but your picture trum...I've read many descriptions, but your picture trumps them all. I do believe there is a strong case to be made for charging Cheney and Bush and more with war crimes. If someone were doing it to our soldiers, it would be!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-58778169320526733462008-02-11T09:28:00.000-08:002008-02-11T09:28:00.000-08:00Dr. Schwab,Thank you so very much for your help an...Dr. Schwab,<BR/>Thank you so very much for your help and direction in the traumatic effects on blood. I found DIC extremely interesting.<BR/><BR/>Thank you also for your input on Bush having/not having PTSD. Your interpretation of his problem is probably much more accurate.Justine Johnston Hemmestadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16173113744180112355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-64363385107422341832008-02-11T08:12:00.000-08:002008-02-11T08:12:00.000-08:00Justine: as to PTSD, I don't see it. It was a trau...Justine: as to PTSD, I don't see it. It was a trauma to us all. For a while after 9/11 nearly everyone in the country was with him. Afganistan was okay, the world agreed. He could have gotten to and kept the high ground. Addictive personality? Maybe. Daddy issues? Perhaps. A need to believe he's right in all things, for whatever reason, and surrounding himself with people who serve that end, and some who used his defects to manipulate him (Cheny, et al): that's what I see the problem is. <BR/><BR/>I don't recall hearing blood referred to as a connective tissue, but I suppose it could be so considered. WIthout looking it up, I think of connective tissue as having certain proteins, fibroblasts, etc. Among the effects of trauma of any sort on blood are the rendering of it hypercoagulable; DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulopathy); hemolysis...Sid Schwabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182853083503404098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-67491839374082696852008-02-11T08:00:00.000-08:002008-02-11T08:00:00.000-08:00Dr. Schwab,Thanks for the discussion. More people...Dr. Schwab,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the discussion. More people need to be aware of these issues.Not Importanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18307127026012212518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30499448.post-13558334207875465492008-02-11T06:20:00.000-08:002008-02-11T06:20:00.000-08:00A slight amendment to my comment:)...I didn't expl...A slight amendment to my comment:)...I didn't explain why I though Bush may suffer from PTSD, so I meant to suggest PTSD due to the devastating physical blow to his country in the first year of his administration.Justine Johnston Hemmestadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16173113744180112355noreply@blogger.com